View Full Version : The 3dmm Manifesto
http://lord_of_the_flies_3d.tripod.com/manifesto/manifesto.htm
Allergic 2 Life
08-10-02, 09:46 PM
So you finally did it... DUN DUN DUNNNN!
Dan Luke
08-10-02, 09:49 PM
the community's going to hell, I agree, all of these newbies who are never gonna make anything but spam...
frantically works on philanthrophy
Demented Ferret
08-10-02, 09:50 PM
Wow, Andreas...Thats pretty cool...I will read it all and get back to you more...
James Burgon
08-10-02, 09:54 PM
I think you're taking 3dmm a little too seriously.
Santiago
08-10-02, 09:54 PM
I honestly don`t consider myself one of thoose stupid n00bs.
I mean, im always relasing stuff, im in new dream productions, i recieved really good rating in some movies i made and stuff like that.
Im actually working on 5 movies. But yeah, i continue being a newbie, but it`s ok for me.
DON'T.... turn this into a goddamn argument about who's new and who's not.
Damie Mckeown
08-10-02, 09:56 PM
I agree with what most of Andres De La Hoz said. Mainly the 'angles' If you cant spin your 3dmovie around than at least make interesting angles that dont look like 2d platform games.
And dont forget your movie doesnt have to have 'bullet time' alot of action movies today dont use it (minority report) and they simply create interesting angles.
What I do disagre with though is that all movies should use 3dmm to the FULL if that was the case there wouldnt be much to watch while we wait cos they would all be in production.
But I got to say '3DMM MOVIES TODAY OFTEN GET OVERATED' there fave rock song, a piece of music of a movie score.....and hey presto 9/10. NOOOOOOO
James Burgon
08-10-02, 10:00 PM
Then there's the sound. Picking music is a very tricky thing. Seeing as this is 3dmm, you probably pick the music before you do the movie, seeing as no one's going to compose it for you.
do NOT steal from other people.
didn't you just contradict yourself? Seeming as if we cant get someone to compose the music, we're gonna have to steal it from other REAL movies?
I meant "do not take music from other 3dmm movies". What you shouldn't do is go, "Ok, i'm gonna take this song in the death scene in lethal intention and use it in my death scene" or "i'm gonna take 'all i want' from aj2 and use it in MY action scene".
Demented Ferret
08-10-02, 10:06 PM
Originally posted by Andres De La Hoz
I meant "do not take music from other 3dmm movies". What you shouldn't do is go, "Ok, i'm gonna take this song in the death scene in lethal intention and use it in my death scene" or "i'm gonna take 'all i want' from aj2 and use it in MY action scene".
WAY to steal my idea Andreas...
And I can't wait to see LOTF...
Damie Mckeown
08-10-02, 10:08 PM
Andres De La Hoz is right but if he is on about sound effects as well, then im getting a mic and a gun
Santiago
08-10-02, 10:10 PM
I understand your point Andres, but you shouldn`t get so angry with the spamming or the stupid newbies, so single you do not pay attention to them.
But, luckily you returned, yes, you probably will hate me, but i don`t care, you are one of the few cool people around here.
No, I didn't return. I just posted this.
Damie Mckeown
08-10-02, 10:12 PM
Andres De La Hoz , Get AIM or MSN or somint
Santiago
08-10-02, 10:12 PM
Originally posted by Damie Mckeown
Andres De La Hoz , Get AIM or MSN or somint
Prepare for get insulted...
James Burgon
08-10-02, 10:13 PM
Well, Andres, maybe you can help ME, with my new movie, seeming as it relies heavily on music, voices and camera 'tricks'.
Originally posted by Demented Ferret
WAY to steal my idea Andreas...
It's ANDRES.
Not Andreas. Thats twice you've done that.
Damie Mckeown
08-10-02, 10:14 PM
What?
James Burgon
08-10-02, 10:15 PM
Originally posted by Damie Mckeown
What?
he has messengers, he just doesn't show it off cause he'd get idiots like you and the others messaging him.
Damie Mckeown
08-10-02, 10:18 PM
Well I spoke to you on AIM and you were ok. Anyway Im not stupid, I wasnt going to talk to him 4 tips and ' your movie sucks' I actualy wanted to talk to him because I agree with him
Jorrit Stuifmeel
08-10-02, 10:19 PM
Interesting, I just realized that what Andres stated in his argument about originality, plot, camera angles, music, sound, etc. is almost exactly what I'm doing in Powerplay. At least i'd like to think it is, we'll just have to wait and see.
Allergic 2 Life
08-10-02, 10:25 PM
Well I agree with most of what Andres said there, I probably fall under the lack of creative writing.
Cheezemaster
08-10-02, 10:25 PM
Thank you Andres.
This text is the best thing that could happen to me (and all this community) in a long time...
Santiago
08-10-02, 10:26 PM
Originally posted by Andres De La Hoz
Don't make a show. Don't make a chain movie. Don't make a wrestling movie.
Too late.
Allergic 2 Life
08-10-02, 10:27 PM
Originally posted by Jorrit Stuifmeel
Interesting, I just realized that what Andres stated in his argument about originality, plot, camera angles, music, sound, etc. is almost exactly what I'm doing in Powerplay. At least i'd like to think it is, we'll just have to wait and see.
Yes, just like GITS. We are taking so long cause we want to perfect our movie and release it for everyone to enjoy, not just for high ratings and or low ratings.
James Burgon
08-10-02, 10:27 PM
Originally posted by Allergic 2 Life
Well I agree with most of what Andres said there, I probably fall under the lack of creative writing.
McZee can help you, use Creative Writer!!
Allergic 2 Life
08-10-02, 10:28 PM
There way to many stupid wresting movies, I enjoy watching Wrestlemania series cause it was pretty original at first, now it got all you other kids doing it.
Allergic 2 Life
08-10-02, 10:29 PM
Originally posted by James Burgon
McZee can help you, use Creative Writer!!
Hahaha, I would nevar
Jorrit Stuifmeel
08-10-02, 10:33 PM
I see one big contradiction however, if we were to make even better, more original movies, the way Andres stated, it would take even longer to release a decent movie. As Andres said, shorts are 'bad' so I wont take those into consideration at the moment.
But if this is the case, the amount of movies will drop even further, rendering this community basically movieless and turning it into an even bigger place of spam and bullshit...
Allergic 2 Life
08-10-02, 10:36 PM
Well then I think the MODS and ADMINS should be more strict.
Also, Dan Luke, the newbies arn't taking down this community, it has nothing to do with newbies, infact newbies are going to keep this community alive. Out of 10 n00bs we get, there are about 7 that are good. So as people leave, newbies take their place.
Guys, don't worry about reading all that, I'll just sum it up here:
"Hi, my name is Andres, I spend all my free time watching 3D Movie Maker movies over, and over, and over, to bring out the bad points in them and tell people how much they suck. This makes me much more supperior then you. Also, I think that we should start making movie with the budget that Star Wars Episode One had because I just don't like them! It's pretty obvious that I'm too poor and fat to go buy a ticket to a normal movie, so instead I just sit on my ass and point out all the bad things about movies that were made on a program that was ment for ages 9 and up. Also my movie DHIADW is really good."
From all this, I learned two things:
a. Andres is the biggest nerd in the world.
b. Andres doesn't understand the concept of "taste", or "having an opinion".
Cheezemaster
08-10-02, 10:37 PM
Originally posted by Jorrit Stuifmeel
I see one big contradiction however, if we were to make even better, more original movies, the way Andres stated, it would take even longer to release a decent movie. As Andres said, shorts are 'bad' so I wont take those into consideration at the moment.
But if this is the case, the amount of movies will drop even further, rendering this community basically movieless and turning it into an even bigger place of spam and bullshit...
Why would you take 2 years to make a good movie. If you want to really show something... the overall perfection of complex camera angles is quite useless. Art don't need time, but talent.
Allergic 2 Life
08-10-02, 10:37 PM
I don't think he was saying that his movie was the best in the world, now you're just making up shit.
Cheezemaster
08-10-02, 10:39 PM
Originally posted by BR
Andres doesn't understand the concept of "taste", or "having an opinion".
Bad taste is taste anyway... so in a way you're right...
Allergic 2 Life
08-10-02, 10:41 PM
Hmm that's another way to think of it.
Damie Mckeown
08-10-02, 10:42 PM
SOOOOO TRUE
Jorrit Stuifmeel
08-10-02, 10:44 PM
Originally posted by Cheezemaster
Why would you take 2 years to make a good movie. If you want to really show something... the overall perfection of complex camera angles is quite useless. Art don't need time, but talent.
I wasnt talking about the movie making alone, i was talking about the entire thinking and production process, making up an original plot is something which isnt done in a day. Plus all the revisions that follow take even more time.
Art, just as any other form of expression, takes time...a whole lot of time.
I'm saying how he pointed out that DD was pure shit that people only enjoyed to suck up to Maltby, when SOME people, like me for instence, enjoy the pointless action.
Hell, if you go by Andres' standereds, then I guess Quake 3 is the shittiest game in the world, and should be liked by no one, seeing as it has no plot.
Not to mention DHIADW wasn't exactly anything other then eye candy either. And don't tell me that the movie was "truely artistic" or any of that bullshit, because it wasn't. The plot for the movie was something a 7th grader could have wrote, and frankly it was nothing original.
So if you ask me, Andres is a hypocrit. Not to mention the fact that Andres bothered to write that big long article about how he thinks a good movie should be made instead of actually MAKING one.
Allergic 2 Life
08-10-02, 10:45 PM
I think it should be upto the person who is making the art for how long it should take. It's not upto you to decide when he should finish/start their projects.
Demented Ferret
08-10-02, 10:51 PM
Originally posted by James Burgon
Well, Andres, maybe you can help ME, with my new movie, seeming as it relies heavily on music, voices and camera 'tricks'.
It's ANDRES.
Not Andreas. Thats twice you've done that.
Ah...it's just I know 2 people who's names are spelt Andreas...I just didn't take time to look for the spelling of his name and assumed it was spelt like...The way I know it as...Won't happen again :)
Allergic 2 Life
08-10-02, 10:54 PM
It better not or I will casterate you with my bare hands.
*tear comes from eye*
Xclexski
08-10-02, 10:57 PM
That was great. I agree with everything you said, and it changed the way I look at 3dmm movies.
Allergic 2 Life
08-10-02, 10:58 PM
Originally posted by Xclexski
That was great. I agree with everything you said, and it changed the way I look at 3dmm movies.
And again, what you said. It was excellent.
Originally posted by BR
Guys, don't worry about reading all that, I'll just sum it up here:
"Hi, my name is Andres, I spend all my free time watching 3D Movie Maker movies over, and over, and over, to bring out the bad points in them and tell people how much they suck. This makes me much more supperior then you. Also, I think that we should start making movie with the budget that Star Wars Episode One had because I just don't like them! It's pretty obvious that I'm too poor and fat to go buy a ticket to a normal movie, so instead I just sit on my ass and point out all the bad things about movies that were made on a program that was ment for ages 9 and up. Also my movie DHIADW is really good."
From all this, I learned two things:
a. Andres is the biggest nerd in the world.
b. Andres doesn't understand the concept of "taste", or "having an opinion".
Buddy, the only difference between you and me being in this board is the fact that I have talent and you don't. The end.
And whatddya mean "make a movie instead"? I am making a movie. IDIOT.
And WTF... a game isn't a movie. Gaming isn't a form of art. Thus, idiot comparison.
And if you enjoyed DD, that's fine. I think you're an idiot. If movies are only about cool explosions for you, then fine, Joe Six-Pack.
Allergic 2 Life
08-10-02, 11:03 PM
Crowd: Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!
Xclexski
08-10-02, 11:04 PM
I guess I have some scenes in XVP I should redo....
Allergic 2 Life
08-10-02, 11:05 PM
Same as GITS, lol.
Did DHIADW have a complicated plot? No. It had a plot that showcased IDEAS and evoked feelings. It was a movie that expressed the ideas of good & evil and how they aren't simply a matter of black & white (shades of grey), while using music that supported these ideas through lyrics and sound. Of course, the long analysis I wrote about it has apparently been deleted, because someone hates me.
Plus what the fuck are you arguing about anyway? Are you contributing ANYTHING here? God forbid I try to slap some sense into people or I'll be attacked by a worthless, talentless loser like you.
Damie Mckeown
08-10-02, 11:09 PM
Well it dont matter cos in real life there are SHIT movies too.
If ya want I could filter all movies to the 'blockbusting ones' and put it on a web but that would only give me a cou...couple..of movies...
www.3dmmMovies/ThatliveUpToAllThingsAndres.com
David Crowe
08-10-02, 11:10 PM
Originally posted by James Burgon
I think you're taking 3dmm a little too seriously.
My thoughts exactly.
James Burgon
08-10-02, 11:12 PM
Originally posted by Andres De La Hoz
Buddy, the only difference between you and me being in this board is the fact that I have talent and you don't. The end.
And whatddya mean "make a movie instead"? I am making a movie. IDIOT.
its not the end then is it! IT GOES ON!
That's just an excuse used by worthless people who suck. (the whole "taking it too seriously" angle)
There ARE entertaining movies. Fun movies. Movies that were obviously fun to the director too. But they shouldn't be mindnumbing pieces of crap. If you people weren't so focused in making a 540° camera rotation with a handmade robot, then maybe you'd make something that isn't shiny pap.
Aaron Haynes
08-10-02, 11:12 PM
Originally posted by Andres De La Hoz
Gaming isn't a form of art.I disagree. Go play ICO some time.
No, seriously, BR has a point. Andres has one too, but Andres, you fail to realise there are people with opinions different than yours, and you can't just TELL people what to do, afterall, you've left the BB, where do you get off telling us what's wrong with the community when you've left the biggest part of it?
The 3dmm community isn't dieing (The increase in bandwidth usage says that), 3dmm is dieing. By leaving and spending half the day writing the MOST biased thing I have ever seen, you're not exactly helping.
3dmm is a program, where you "turn your ideas into movies" as the cd case says, from ages 8 and upwards. So you have a community full of kids playing with this game in their spare time, why would they even WANT to come up with a plot as confusing as something like Snatch or Lock Stock? Why would they spend ages trying to map out a really good looking scene, when it's something they're using to pass the time?
Movies like DD keep the community going, more than the lengthy story driven films do. They show off what can be achieved in this amazingly overdated game, and it impresses and inspires people to do the same.
The points you raised with those annotated pictures are fucking pointless. We're not amazing directors like you Andres, we're teenagers who enjoy clicking buttons and animating death scenes.
You need to realise that people have opinions, and my opinion is that, when it comes to 3dmm, BR's a better animator than you.
If I want to watch a serious movie, I'll look at my DVD collection. If I want to see some fancy animating or pointless humour, I'll open up 3dmm.
Demented Ferret
08-10-02, 11:15 PM
I think what Andres has written shows a LOT, and a mean a LOT of potential...We can learn a lot for what is written there...If you lot just consider absorbing this info then maybe your movie WON'T suck...I mean look at Andres' movies...Do they suck? This is advice from someone who knows how to make DECENT movies...So...Learn from him...
What Andres is "asking" of us is the shit you see in top class films. We don't make top class films, we play with a fucking GAME.
Allergic 2 Life
08-10-02, 11:17 PM
I Concur!
Lights a pipe
James Burgon
08-10-02, 11:18 PM
Originally posted by Andres De La Hoz
That's just an excuse used by worthless people who suck.
Whatever.
You've gotta be fucking kidding me, Jim. You're basically saying what I wrote, which is a LIST OF THINGS TO DO TO IMPROVE YOUR MOVIE is less constructive than what BR does, which is... NOTHING.
Allergic 2 Life
08-10-02, 11:21 PM
Yeah no shit Jim, he is not telling you to do that, its just what you COULD do to improve. So you can go with some advice to make a good/bad movie or just ignore what Andres said and continue.
Demented Ferret
08-10-02, 11:22 PM
Exactly my point...
It's not like I'm asking you to create the next 2001, people...
I mean, think about it. This is all I say:
1) An intelligent, original plot that succesfully conveys feelings and ideas in a way that doesn't try and manipulate the audience.
2) Well developed characters that act logically and reinforce the ideas and feelings that the movie tries to convey.
2) Direction that focuses on using the cinematic language in moderate, but not excessive ways, trying to show the feelings and emotions from the story through images, rather than through words and music.
4) Original style and ideas from the director that are applied into the movie, but not excessively or constantly. Elements that refer to the director's previous work, but don't make it a copy of it.
5) Tight pace, only allowing scenes that are trying to either advance the plot or express the ideas in the movie, either obviously or below the surface.
6) Acting that helps support the emotions and details of the story and characters, while at the same time not seeming overly staged.
7) Music that helps support the atmosphere of the movie, yet not being the prime way of evoking feelings from the audience.
9) Well placed sound that suits the movie, without setting too much attention on itself.
8) Abandon of excessive trickery and focus on brainless eye-candy and animation.
With the exception of the FIRST POINT, all of those are perfectly logical, "doable" things.
As Spencer said, it's not like I'm forcing you to follow this. It's the way I THINK. I'm not saying everyone needs to declare that DD, E&S, DIA, BF, and other acclaimed movies are crap, leave the community, and start directing costume epics about the French Revolution. All I'm saying is read the thing, and even if you disagree with what I think on the state of the community and movies in general, at least give it a shot. At least try to incorporate these things and see if they work.
Demented Ferret
08-10-02, 11:28 PM
That's great advice...Oh and I enjoyed your essay thing (I really don't know the word for it), it conveyed a LOT of useful ideas for me...
Robert Domke
08-11-02, 12:05 AM
Well, ya know its not like we are getting paid to make movies.....
James Burgon
08-11-02, 12:09 AM
Help me then, Andres. Teach me how. I agree I know nothing about camera angles and writing scripts, so yeah.
Kim Turley
08-11-02, 12:09 AM
The site doesn't work for me....
Fredrick
08-11-02, 12:13 AM
This is the longest, most intelligent thing I've read all day, and I would not change a word of it myself. Just as it did with Xclexski, it has changed the way I look at 3dmm movies. You've taught me a few things I will keep back in mind next time I go off to make a movie. Useful things.
Well done, Andres.
Robert Domke
08-11-02, 12:16 AM
Well if someone would pay me to make a kick ass 3dmm movie, bla bla whatever, id be more motivated than im now, knowing that only a bunch of people can / will actually watch my MOVIE....
Allergic 2 Life
08-11-02, 12:17 AM
See I told you alot of people agreed with you. As like me, changed the way I think of making mooooovies.
Just to throw some meat into the grinder.
I've shown Bodily Functions to many different people and they all think it's an awesome animated short. These people also have no no idea of the limitations of 3DMM. These people rated the movie even without knowing how painstakingly hard it was to animate, and judged it alongside RL movie cartoons and still rated it highly, based on its story, its camera angles and its emotional impact.
I've shown the same people DD and they laughed through it, they enjoyed it. They would watch it again, and some who have a burn of my 3DMM still watch it from time to time. These people are 19 and 20 years old.
I disagree for the most part about the community dying, and I disagree that you have to follow your pointers in the Manifesto to create a good 3D movie.
--EDIT--
Despite my dislike of the article, I thought the pointers for making "cinema-esque" movies were very accurate and would be good for newbs to refference if they ever set out to make such a movie.
I fully agree with Jimmah.
Allergic 2 Life
08-11-02, 12:53 AM
You people make me sick.
(Waits for Allergic to contribute something of worth to the discussion instead of his pointless trademark one-line replies...)
Allergic 2 Life
08-11-02, 01:05 AM
(If Qutput read the whole topic maybe he wouldn't of made an ass of himself)
(He didnt make an ass out of himself. Around 90% of your posts on this topic alone are one-liners).
Allergic 2 Life
08-11-02, 01:21 AM
No you're wrong. They don't have to be big paragraphs to mean much, so shut the fuck up. Don't turn this topic into an arguement.
Oh here is one for you...
People like you ruin good threads.
From Andrez's Manifesto
Still, this movie probably won't be nothing to be too proud of, but if it's just a hobby, then you shouldn't have a problem with that, you worthless jackass.
haha, i laughed. He is really pissed.
It seems Andrez has a problem with people who do not specifically set out to make the best movie they can do, which I find is a real odd perspective.
Allergic:
Point taken. For the sake of this half-decent thread I won't argue with you. I'll just disagree and say no more.
Tony Teulan
08-11-02, 01:30 AM
Take Tony Teulan, for example. You'd think a person studying film, a person that considers himself a cinema fan would be able to craft a film with cinema-like ideas. That would not be the case. While Tony might be a decent writer (as the semi-interesting "Escape & Sacrifice" proved), he's a truly hideous director. His movie was lambasted because of it's animation, but that isn't what people should have been focusing on. The cinematography is. While it isn't fully reasonable to expect Teulan to make excellent, poetic images with 3d movie maker, he, as an aspiring director, should focus on that aspect instead of relying on contrived angles, sloppy editing, and a lack of visual flare in general. The movie seems more like a filmed play than an actual film, wasting the perfect opportunity of using the cinematic language to support it's story. I thought you LIKED E&S??
When I made E&S, the problem was that I just didn't have the patience. I was also more focussed on doing a website instead. These aren't feeble excuses, they are reality.
"He's a truly hideous director" -- I like how you take this conclusion from a film that is two years old. I am doing my own 3dmm film about the raid on Cabantuan, the Japanese POW camp, that is the subject of the movie I'm in. Having read both books written about it and having the benefit of being on set and seeing how the camp is laid out and how security operated, I already have a lot of ideas on how I would write it.
I have also penned screenplays to make as live-action films which I plan on making very slickly.
I also plan on remaking E&S as I have to write the 90-120 minute screenplay for the live-action version I'm filming next year anyway and improving the core of the story , fleshing out a lot of details not touched on in the movie like why the Jewish family left America for Berlin, time in Berlin before the war and also incorporating a lot more action sequences, suspense and well-written scenes showing how Peter & Jodie come to be in love at the end of the day they meet (which sounds impossible but you'll realise why when you see the new version).
Regarding your other points, I agree that they're all do-able. However, I think films like DD are great just for sitting down and rewatching when you're bored. There is nothing wrong with popcorn fodder, not everything has to have depth to be a likeable and good movie. When I go to see most horror films EG Joy Ride, are they Academy Award material? No. Are they slickly directed, visually interesting and have believeable, well-developed characters? Often they do. People can get hung up on genre bias where they automatically write off a film because it's 'action' or 'romantic comedy' or 'horror'. But any type of film can be a decent movie, even if it's not something that's going to be winning its creators and stars golden statuettes come Oscar time.
I would love to see more intelligent films being done but hope that the short popcorn fodder films are still made. They're straight-out enjoyable and they let people develop their skills.
If you disagree about the community dying, then please list 3 great movies released this year. Better yet, 3 movies above average.
I forgot something in that thing, which was to criticize, insult, and anally rape the people who keep saying that we should go back to basics and use default scenes. That's the worst kind of thinking one can have.
Gorosaurus
08-11-02, 01:34 AM
I don't think that this article should be news to anyone here, this is stuff we've been saying for a while. I try as hard as I possibly can to incorporate everything there, but even more which wasn't. I was surprised to see Andres put down Action Joe II and Ragtag, though Ragtag was worth putting down. But I totally disagree about Bodily Functions, which I think proudly displays most, if not all of your list.
Great article, extremely well written, albeit occasionally repetetive, I found it entertaining as well as informative... But I must ask... did you make it simply to show what you think movies are lacking and/or should have, or is it supposed to be an essay telling us what we should change?
It would've been extremely helpful if you could've found even one 3D movie that you thought followed you list, which could serve as a guide to us... but I can only speculate that you couldn't find a single one.....no?
'Twas a long time ago, Tony. Back when I liked most 3dmm movies. Not now, when I hate almost anything, particularly MY work (because I am more aware of how the circumstances of doing my movies were, so I can safely assure that sometimes it was because of laziness).
Also, I never said we shouldn't have action movies. But they shouldn't be RETARDED.
Originally posted by Qutput
I've shown the same people DD and they laughed through it, they enjoyed it. They would watch it again, and some who have a burn of my 3DMM still watch it from time to time. These people are 19 and 20 years old.
And I know 17-18 year olds that consider Deuce Bigalow the funniest movie of all time. What's your point?
Gorosaurus
08-11-02, 01:40 AM
Originally posted by Andres De La Hoz
If you disagree about the community dying, then please list 3 great movies released this year. Better yet, 3 movies above average.
's pretty simple....
G98PE (Heh... I'd better like it)
Doom
Retrospection
There's plenty more that, well they might not fit the 9 Commandments they were definitely enjoyable
I believe the community's in it's prime, actually
Lower quality movie's don't dictate the community's death I dont think. It just says that the new people aren't near the skill level that vets were at when they left.
At the end of the day, some 3DMMers are making movies and other 3DMMers enjoy them, regardless of whether they are revolutionary or 'great'. Its a very active community.
Just like if you had a small Counter-Strike community you wouldnt gauge the life of the community by the overall skill level. You'd gauge it by how many games were played.
And I know 17-18 year olds that consider Deuce Bigalow the funniest movie of all time. What's your point?
The point is my social circle who have seen DD are very intelligent, yet still find enjoyment from a pointless action flick. So the director must have done something right to make them laugh and to keep their interest through what is a pretty long 3D movie.
The point is it doesnt need the plot and the cinematic camera angles and the long thought processes through each scene. It makes people laugh.
Originally posted by Qutput
Lower quality movie's don't dictate the community's death I dont think.
Well, if there are less movies, no progress, and a decrease in quality, then i'd say things are NOT GOOD.
Originally posted by Qutput
The point is it doesnt need the plot and the cinematic camera angles and the long thought processes through each scene. It makes people laugh.
Some people. People who consider random screams and flying shit funny.
Bob Toasted
08-11-02, 01:49 AM
...he's just pissed he's not mod anymore.
Greg Aronov
08-11-02, 01:50 AM
Bob toasted is a rawking hipster.
Yes. Its called slapstick humour. Infact in the UK movie teams can sell slapstick humour for lots of money. Take Monty Python for instance.
Monty Python and the Holy Grail has a scene where this fluffy bunny rabbit masacre's about 30 men in suits of armour. So yes, there is an audience for it.
Let me show a different take on the subject.
I will admit, I know how you feel Andrez. There are very few movies that raise my interest enough for me to go out my way to download them. But maybe thats our problem.
As vets of the community we know what 3DMM is capable, we've seen movies we consider to be the benchmark for all other movies and other movies released just dont cut the mustard for us.
If you take a noob's perspective (and consider as you have their age and mentality) you can understand how what we percieve to be lesser movies can be quite enjoyable for other community members.
So then you see that movies we'd consider to be 3DMM fuckaround movies do actually have a following by those who CAN find enjoyment out of it (noobs which now make up the large part of the community) you see the interest is still there, and the community isnt dying.
my thoughtts exactly, we know that every type of movie has it's type of audience, Andrez has it's taste, I have another, the community will never have the same taste on movies, same in humour, so ur Manifesto won't change anything, im sorry.
But it would be great to see at least once, the perfect 3dmm movie, great plot, great atmosphere, great everything, just like a high quality real movie.
Tony Teulan
08-11-02, 02:01 AM
Originally posted by Andres De La Hoz
he's a truly hideous director.
Originally posted by Andres De La Hoz
'Twas a long time ago, Tony.
The two statements don't seem to agree with each other, Andres.
Bob Toasted
08-11-02, 02:02 AM
Andres, its like a 6 year old program for kids. Its LIMTIED! That is the REAL reason 3dmm movies suck. Here's an idea, how about you get off your fat ass and make live action movies with a camera. Jesus, you scare the crap out of me when you make stuff like that, and when you act so serious. Besides DHIADW was a shitty movie. It was just a guy walking around then he talked to a guy and then that thing fell off the builiding. I'm guessing thats your plans for the future. Since you were teased and teased, your gonna kill everyone. Then someguy is just gonna waltz into your town and kill you. Which is something NO ONE else could do. Give me a break. I seriously think you have have a mental handicap.
Originally posted by BAN
But it would be great to see at least once, the perfect 3dmm movie, great plot, great atmosphere, great everything, just like a high quality real movie.
im gonna quote myself here.
if the perfect 3dmm movie ever comes out that won't mean everyone will like it. Just like in the real movies.
Frankie Weindel
08-11-02, 02:10 AM
there is no perfect movie, unless it is called "Perfect Movie" but that wouldnt mean it would be perfect.
Acid Drop
08-11-02, 02:11 AM
I know what ya mean about 3dmm movies not being great andres but come on man were what all in the ages of 8-20 or something I don't know for sure. We use a childish program so ya can't expect our movies to be like the best you ever seen, cause you will always judge them against movies that you rent or see in the theatres which cost atleast a million at low budget. Were just learning! I do know what ya mean about short movies though. I never take the time to download them. I do download Jordi's movies though. Theres something about them that just clicks. I don't know what though. I am new to the Board and don't post much, I don't argue with anybody at all so some of use newbies aren't soo bad. As you can see from my sig that my first movie coming out will be pretty good, or so I hope. This movie took along time to plan out. Plus I had to learn how everyone makes movies and techniques. So atleast some of us are trying. You say 3dmm is dieing, your most likely right. Everything is always dieing man. any program that is new is popular but it is dieing, it has a certain expectancy on which people will us it and its just a matter of time before the time is up. So instead of deciding when its going to die and complaining that movies suck, just make movies and go along with it. Your opinion will not change the fate of 3dmm.
Not trying to be mean man, just what I think
Bob Toasted
08-11-02, 02:13 AM
Originally posted by BAN
im gonna quote myself here.
if the perfect 3dmm movie ever comes out that won't mean everyone will like it. Just like in the real movies. It'll never happen. Like I said, its limited. You cant make scenes warm or cool without it looking screwed up. You can't have the characters make facial expressions, which is a big part in character development. There are so many other reason also.
Greg Aronov
08-11-02, 02:17 AM
Originally posted by Frankie902
there is no perfect movie, unless it is called "Perfect Movie" but that wouldnt mean it would be perfect.
OMG LMFAO THAT IS SO FUCKING FUNNY MAN MAYBE YOU SHOULD BE A COMEDIAN ALOALAOALOLOLOLOLOLOLOOLO!L111l!L1124435235$&^&@@@@!@!!!!!!111
Qutput's made a lot of great points, and I still disagree with Andres' manifesto thing. It's like you're trying to make an official thing telling us we're bad. You say things suck, you don't say YOU think they suck.
Gorosaurus
08-11-02, 02:35 AM
I believe that Andres' recipe would go to create some kickin' films... but they would get old real fast if every movie tried to totally stimulate every braincell, make you cry, and then try to be remembered forever. We need pointlessness just as much.... well, almost as much... as braintwisters. I try to handle both in my work, that's what cartoon movies are all about
Travis Wells
08-11-02, 03:03 AM
Originally posted by Andres De La Hoz
. The problem isn't the fact that people prefer discussing which Britney Spears song is better or masturbation techniques than making a movie.
BWAHAHAHa.
Thats the REAL reason the community is dying (if it is...)
CHING.
Travis Wells
08-11-02, 03:09 AM
All comedy aside, Your a genious Andres.
If anyone actually follows your well laid out suggestions they'll be a much better director.
And the community will benefit of course.
Skittlebrau
08-11-02, 03:17 AM
*whips out notepad*
Bob Toasted
08-11-02, 03:40 AM
And another thing, who do you think you are telling people how to make movies?
Skittlebrau
08-11-02, 03:40 AM
A damn good director, Bob.
The funniest thing about this is that Andres is like...15 years old.
Originally posted by Allergic 2 Life
Well I agree with most of what Andres said there, I probably fall under the lack of creative writing.
Same.
thanks for all the advices Andrez... but no thanks. I work solo.
Look, I'm not expecting oscar caliber movies. I'm not expecting masterpieces that'll reveal the meaning of life to me. What I'm expecting is a fucking DECENT action or comedy movie, and when you can't get that, then you know there's a problem.
And did I say ALL movies need to be serious? Did I say ALL movies need to be original and intellectual? No.
And stop crying because I criticized your movie, Tony. You're a grown man, for fuck's sake.
Originally posted by Qutput
Yes. Its called slapstick humour. Infact in the UK movie teams can sell slapstick humour for lots of money. Take Monty Python for instance.
Monty Python and the Holy Grail has a scene where this fluffy bunny rabbit masacre's about 30 men in suits of armour. So yes, there is an audience for it.
And I'm sure you'll agree that if 60 / 70 percent of all movies were of that brand of humor, then you'd get bored pretty quickly and demand something else.
Originally posted by Whitey
The funniest thing about this is that Andres is like...15 years old.
It's about as funny as you never releasing anything even remotely memorable and being the community's oldest member.
Originally posted by Bob Toasted
You can't have the characters make facial expressions, which is a big part in character development.
Refer to the JACKSON picture, stupid.
oooh! What a BURN by the amazing Andres!
Who is in middle school by the way! ZINNNG!
11th grade, moron. Learn to count.
Well how about that, big boy. You're finally old enough to pack you own lunch.
You're not even a year older, fuckwit.
Whatever, I don't care. Let's get back to the topic, which is: YOU ALL SUCK.
I'm a year and a half older than you. "Learn to count, moron".
Travis Wells
08-11-02, 05:22 AM
November 15, 1985
July 14, 1986
8 months.
1 year = 12 months
12 months > 8 months.
Crazy Ivan
08-11-02, 05:38 AM
searches frantically for appropriate "PWNED!!11" image
Travis Wells
08-11-02, 05:39 AM
http://signs.3dmm2.com/owned.gifhttp://signs.3dmm2.com/bean.gif
Originally posted by BAN
But it would be great to see at least once, the perfect 3dmm movie, great plot, great atmosphere, great everything, just like a high quality real movie. I have two words for you: Jon Snell.
Travis Wells
08-11-02, 05:45 AM
Ahh shut your stupid flat head you.
Originally posted by Andres De La Hoz
What I'm expecting is a fucking DECENT action or comedy movie, and when you can't get that, then you know there's a problem.
DD for you was crap. Was it funny and entertaining for most of the community? YES. The movie reached it's goal. It made people laugh
EDIT: added "it made people laugh"
Originally posted by BR
I have two words for you: Jon Snell.
na
Originally posted by Andres De La Hoz
And I'm sure you'll agree that if 60 / 70 percent of all movies were of that brand of humor, then you'd get bored pretty quickly and demand something else. Wrong again. Take Monty Pythons circus for example, and compare it to a good movie. That's what we have in the community. A Flying Circus movie contains of many short movie. That's what the community has. Lots of short movies, and every once in a while, a long movie is released.
Anyway, if I wanted to see a deep movie with great camera angels, I'd go watch to the theater with some friends or rent a DVD. I don't come hear to see blockbusters, I come here for 3D Movie Maker movies.
Originally posted by BAN
na You have no idea. Jon has been working on this movie for two years. Then again, same story with DIA, and that was a piece of shit... but I have fate in Jon. And you shall seeee...
Originally posted by Travis Wells
Ahh shut your stupid flat head you. Shouldn't you be designing some sort of 3dmm2 or something? Just kidding. You should be working out.
oh sorry, im really outdated, what is he working on? Did he releaed a preview or some screenshots?
He showed me like a 20 second clip a while ago... It was really good, and if the whole movie, which is like... I donno how long, 20 minutes or something, is like that, then I'm pretty sure it'll something the community hasn't seen before.
He said he's making it all from first person view, which I don't exactly know if that's a good idea or not, but I guess he knows what he's doing.
Uhh... I think he only talked about it on several occations. Not to mention he's never online anymore...
Crazy Ivan
08-11-02, 06:02 AM
Originally posted by BR
Just kidding. You should be working out. http://signs.3dmm2.com/owned.gif
Alan Lasher
08-11-02, 06:05 AM
edit-nevermind, BAN fixed it
Travis Wells
08-11-02, 06:05 AM
Originally posted by BR
You should be working out.
Guess what I just did all bloody day?
wow, and what's the name of the movie?
Alan Lasher
08-11-02, 06:06 AM
Originally posted by Travis Wells
Guess what I just did all bloody day?
I am gonna take a stab in the dark, but were you working out?
Travis Wells
08-11-02, 06:10 AM
Originally posted by Alan Lasher
I am gonna take a stab in the dark, but were you working out?
hands you a metal
Originally posted by Private Jimmah
Qutput's made a lot of great points, and I still disagree with Andres' manifesto thing. It's like you're trying to make an official thing telling us we're bad. You say things suck, you don't say YOU think they suck.
to sum up, the whole approach Andrez took pissed off many people, his tips are good and helpful, but he started trashing the community. Noone here is saying anything against Andrez's advices, they are just saying things against Andrez's actitude in the manifesto. am i right?
Travis Wells
08-11-02, 06:15 AM
Ban, it's Andres.
with the S.
Travis, you've made so many typos and misspellings in this thread that you shouldn't be correcting other people's spelling.
Oh. Well I just want you to know, Travis, that while you were working out, I was HAVING SEX.
Greg Aronov
08-11-02, 06:31 AM
I'm an african american woman.
Crazy Ivan
08-11-02, 06:35 AM
It's true, this is Viva:
http://angstindustries.com/images/miss-cleo-screen-capture.jpg
whoa. I suddenly wonna see Mrs. Cleo throw up.
Alan Lasher
08-11-02, 06:37 AM
Originally posted by Travis Wells
hands you a metal
feels special
Miss Cleo's Jamaican.
Jamaican me crazy!!!!!!!!!111111111111cellphone
Dustin Guest
08-11-02, 07:13 AM
Originally posted by BR
I have two words for you: Jon Snell. WHAT! Name one movie he's made like that!
ahem.... Dustin
Originally posted by BR
He showed me like a 20 second clip a while ago... It was really good, and if the whole movie, which is like... I donno how long, 20 minutes or something, is like that, then I'm pretty sure it'll something the community hasn't seen before.
He said he's making it all from first person view, which I don't exactly know if that's a good idea or not, but I guess he knows what he's doing.
Uhh... I think he only talked about it on several occations. Not to mention he's never online anymore...
Dustin Guest
08-11-02, 07:19 AM
But anyway, the things you stated in the manifesto are the exact reasons why I'm considering not finishing MOS 2 and giving up with 3dmm. Most of the drama is cheap manipulation and tears with bad dialague. I'm not a good writer, so I'm not suprised about that. Acting's always been my field. So, the plot has more holes than a screen door. Most of the angles are just reused over and over in the talking scenes because I was too lazy, and now I can't find the motivation to do anything with 3dmm. You have points Andres.
Dustin Guest
08-11-02, 07:22 AM
Originally posted by BAN
ahem.... Dustin
Ahem....Ban. It's always some stupid thing like, "Oh...I saw a clip, which no one else has seen and it was fucking brilliant." plus that, and BR is known for being connected by the throat to Snell's dick, so I have a hard time buying this. Until I see some proof of this, I don't buy it. I don't even need to see a clip. I'd like to see someone who truly hates Snell say the same thing.
Allergic 2 Life
08-11-02, 07:24 AM
Mrs.Cleo is fucking hot army.
ahem Dustin.... AHEM!!
.....em??
Dustin Guest
08-11-02, 07:31 AM
wait...isn't Cleo from, like, New Jersey or something?
Bob Toasted
08-11-02, 07:32 AM
Originally posted by Andres De La Hoz
Refer to the JACKSON picture, stupid. Ok, you said you can tell more about him then his dialouge. Who is he then? What is he about? All you can tell is he's mad. the photo in the back just shows he knows someone enough to hang a picture. The camera position doesn't do much with who the character is, it just shows the veiwer he's better than you.
Tony Teulan
08-11-02, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by Andres De La Hoz
And stop crying because I criticized your movie, Tony. You're a grown man, for fuck's sake. Whoa, hold up. No one's crying here but YOU. I just questioned why you suddenly go from saying you like it to saying you don't. And why you judge my directing abilities on something which you admit yourself was done a long time ago is beyond me. You haven't explained that.
Tony Teulan
08-11-02, 11:37 AM
Originally posted by Andres De La Hoz
YOU ALL SUCK. Hohohohohoho! Everyone bow down to the great Lord Le Hoz. WE ARE NOT WORTHY!
Tuffe John
08-11-02, 12:24 PM
Eey, this was a long topic with many interesting opinions and a whole lot of less interesting ones. My movies arent original, there are not much of a plot, they arent well done, I never done a interesting camera angle. But I have fun making them and thats all I need
Robert Domke
08-11-02, 12:24 PM
I dont give a damn, my next movie will have no plot, no dialogue but tons of music from Artists I like, and of course plenty of eye candy ! YAY !
James Burgon
08-11-02, 01:22 PM
If we all suck, why did Andres write that long-ass article about how to make movies, and come crawling back to post it.
Kim Turley
08-11-02, 01:29 PM
I agree with Andres totally whole-heartedly
and I have basic cinematic skills and knowledge which i know alot of the community doesn't have. So I have decide to share my knowledge.
On a new section at 3dmm.tv I will explain some of the conventions and codes in easy to understand language so some directors will benifit
I have already typed loads out.
So you agree that you need to follow his pointers to make an enjoyable movie?
Kim Turley
08-11-02, 01:34 PM
no
1. i can't see the page, but from what people have posted here, I can make the assumption that Andres would like people to use more cinematic conventions
however these are not essential to making a good movie.... Many movies have been made without the knowledge, but your movie has more chance if your know of the codes and conventions
Tuffe John
08-11-02, 01:37 PM
I can't view the site either but I think I got a pretty good iddea of what it says after reading this topic
I dont know about that. I would think DD would have been a big hit regardless of whether the community was full of such movies, because of the "off-the-wall" humour.
I think it comes down to taste at the end of the day, but I do agree that Andres lists some things to bear in mind if you want to make a 3D movie that would be fit for RL cinema.
And in fear of contradicting myself, the movie I'm working on fits Andres' description of a decent movie in his eyes, but then we're both big fans of cinema, and we can both see what makes a cinematic movie.
Kim Turley
08-11-02, 01:42 PM
You have to admit though, alot of the things people complain about in 3dmm movies e.g. camera angles showing the whole scene the whole length of the dialogue etc
they would be vastly more interesting (even if the dialogue was still crap) if they had cloe-ups for narrative-important things etc
Paul Marriott
08-11-02, 01:54 PM
Originally posted by Andres De La Hoz
http://lord_of_the_flies_3d.tripod.com/manifesto/manifesto.htm
All the more reason for me leaving the community SEVENTEEN months ago.
No, I am not a newbie. I am a 3dmm veteran. Only a minority (and I must emphasise the word 'minority') of you will remember me. I 'retired' from 3dmm in March of 2001.
On to the manifesto - Andres does make a few valid points (although I feel that this guy takes 3dmm WAY too seriously, and he shouldn't..get a grip!). A lot of things on the manifesto I just don't agree with - period.
Good graphics, special FX and camera angles don't necessarily make a good movie. If you disagree with this statement, then I suggest that all of you get ahold of (fellow 3dmm veteran) Yusuf Ozkizil and ask him to send you a copy of "Harassed". In my opinion, graphics, FX and camera angles mean absolutely NOTHING to me. It's the storyline and characterisations that count the most.
I didn't just leave because I felt my 3dmm skills weren't up to scratch, I got bored and simply moved onto other things.
What 'killed off' 3dmmers in the past (at least, in my generation), was the fact that the 3dmmers took 3dmm way too seriously that it dragged down to a point where 3dmm movie making was no fun at all.
Don't believe me, just read Andres' manifesto.
And that was the reason why I bought 3dmm back in 1995. For the FUN pastime value.
James Burgon
08-11-02, 01:56 PM
Then why come back?
Agreed, they would be, but DD did, and so did Bodily Functions and they both got the 'Fuck off you suck' treatment from Andrez.
I re-read the article and I found it funny that he picked out the worst camera angle from Bodily Functions to show the movie up, and to show an example of how NOT to do things. Why didnt he choose a movie that consistently boasts such shit scenes?
I think it was because he wants to undermine what is a great piece of 3DMM history.
I thought the framing was good, the fast camera cutting was slick and the action was well displayed, coupled with a satisfactory plot and a story concept unique to 3DMM. Interesting action scenes and entertaining hand made characters, fitting music and great sound effects with an adequate movie length, which overall makes the movie quite outstanding.
I think Bodily Functions is an awesome movie to try and aspire to for those new to 3DMM. And I really have a problem trying to see the movie as bad as it's made out to be in the manifesto.
Paul Marriott
08-11-02, 02:03 PM
Originally posted by James Burgon
Then why come back?
Nostalgic value.
A trip down memory lane.
Think of it as an 'Alumni School Reunion' thing.
I am not 'back' in the community. It's just a 'brief visit'.
The names spring back to mind....Yusuf Ozkzil (a.k.a. OZ), Brad Connell, Jason Ruiz, Dane Loch, Mark Boisvert, Matt Snell, James Dennett, Darksun, Nathan Avery, Melisa Ozkizil, Daniel Nygard, Cory Gugler, Nathan Lear, Jason Kirsten, Jason Johnson, Bobby Anderson, Bjorn Holdt, Jon Reeve and Jordan Adams..this is not even HALF the list!
And as the late Freddie Mercury once said, "Those were the days..of our lives".
Bob Toasted
08-11-02, 02:04 PM
Originally posted by Kim Turley
and I have basic cinematic skills and knowledge which i know alot of the community doesn't have.I LAUGHED SO FUCKING HARD!
Paul, you still got 3DMM? Downloaded any of the next-gen movies? Mabye you should, just to see how much things have progressed since you left :-D
Originally posted by Travis Wells
November 15, 1985
July 14, 1986
8 months.
1 year = 12 months
12 months > 8 months.
That date is a mistype. I was actually born in 1984. I'm 17. My bad for putting the wrong date in.
Dustin Guest
08-11-02, 03:57 PM
My God, Paul Marriot, how the hell are you? Folks, to see some of Paul's work, search high and low for the Karate Conundrum series or the Mathematics For The Phsychotic (I think that was the name, I still have it...) THESE are classic.
Travis Wells
08-11-02, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by Whitey
That date is a mistype. I was actually born in 1984. I'm 17. My bad for putting the wrong date in.
Sorry then.
Yeah the title had something to do with "1st grade mathematics" but I can't remember the exact thing either.
Paul Marriott
08-11-02, 04:40 PM
(Sorry guys, this may be a little off-topic..but here goes...)
Hey Ryan (Whitey), Dustin, Qutput and anyone else that remembers me!
I'm doing pretty well, thanks. It's been a long time, eh?
I'm currently in Hong Kong (woo!) - been here for a year just after completing 3 years of Uni in the UK. Got my 2:2 Honours Degree in BA(Hons) Computing circa. July 2001.
I got a job for several months here in Hong Kong at a PHP Internet Server-Side Programming firm. Now I'm doing freelance work as a Freelance PC Consultant. That basically means I go around to peoples houses to fix up their PC computers whenever a problem arises. On top of that, I am also training for MCSE (Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer) certifications.
Fear not! I haven't sold my soul to the MS devil :)..it's just a 'qualification' :).
My website is www.paulmarriott.net (I'm afraid so! heh..) and if you guys want to chat sometime, my ICQ UIN is 2119108.
It's been quite a while since I've last posted in these BBs..amazing how things change here so quickly..
Yes I should consider reinstalling 3dmm now, and try downloading some of those new movies and watching them..I'm getting '3dmm fever' all over again...haha - Kinda like Hollywood Hulk Hogan becoming the Hulkamania Hollywood Hulk Hogan in the WWE / WWF.
Ah yes.. I forgot to mention my 3dmm movies of the past. I made, along with my brother, the "Karate Conundrum" movie series. Although not up to the graphical standards of today's 3dmm flicks, they are still worth a look..especially for the nostalgic value!
As well as the KC movies, I also made the "First Grade Mathematics for Homicidal Psychopaths" movie (Sesame Street Counting sketch plus lots of senseless gore), and I also did some 3dmm voice acting here-and-then.
Some of the voice credits include Jason Ruiz's "Action Joe 2", Rob Domke's "Apocalypse", Tony Teulan's "Escape and Sacrifice 1" and Tuna Hematoma's "3dmm Latenight". In fact, I enjoyed the voice acting a lot more than the actual directing.
Hey Dustin..you made that "Men of Seattle" movie, right?
That movie was truly one of the greatest 3dmm movies I had ever seen! A good movie with powerful characterisation, strong relationships between characters, intense action and a good story to go along with it. Great stuff!
Anyone that hasn't seen MOS yet should go and see it.
Speaking of my old movies, I still have them archived on CD-R discs, so if anyone wants a few sent over, feel free to contact me at either vhunter@paulmarriott.net or through ICQ (again, number is 2119108).
Jordi Visser
08-11-02, 04:41 PM
I agree with Andres about the bad movie quality and the fact that the community is going downhill but I also think Andres thinks he's some kind of movie God who knows everything better. He's taking 3dmm waaaaay too seriously. The program just has it's limitations which is a fact you gotta accept and learn to live with.
You can't and musn't compare 3dmm with real movies but rather with cartoons or animations.
I'm sure if I was a real director my films would be totally different; when I'm using 3dmm I just know the limitations of the program and try to make the best of it.
Travis Wells
08-11-02, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by Paul Marriott
I got a job for several months here in Hong Kong at a PHP Internet Server-Side Programming firm.
Yay PHP.
My second favorite programming language.
BTW, First Grade Mathematics for Homicidal Psychopaths was great.
Paul Marriott
08-11-02, 04:47 PM
Originally posted by Paul Marriott
In my opinion, graphics, FX and camera angles mean absolutely NOTHING to me.
To reiterate,
Storylines, characterisations and plots are the main priority for a successful movie. Graphics, special FX and camera angles are secondary.
If you can have them all, then god bless you!
Paul Marriott
08-11-02, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by Travis Wells
Yay PHP.
My second favorite programming language.
BTW, First Grade Mathematics for Homicidal Psychopaths was great.
Cheers, Travis!
Travis Wells
08-11-02, 04:49 PM
I think it was because he wants to undermine what is a great piece of 3DMM history.
You forgot the part where he took a screenshot of it and said "Look at this one, it's much better".
He isn't just saying "3dmm sucks!"
He's saying "Look, 3dmm movie making isn't all it could be, here's how to make it better".
That's what sets this apart from all the newbies ( and vets) yelling that 3dmm is dead/dying.
Yes, 3dmm has limitations. ( And MM+ is working to remove them)
But these limitations aren't that movies can't have a PLOT.
Paul Marriott
08-11-02, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by Qutput
Yes. Its called slapstick humour. Infact in the UK movie teams can sell slapstick humour for lots of money. Take Monty Python for instance.
Monty Python and the Holy Grail has a scene where this fluffy bunny rabbit masacre's about 30 men in suits of armour. So yes, there is an audience for it.
"How to defend yourself...against a man.....armed...with a piece...of fresh fruit!"
Classic series, that Monty Python.
Paul Marriott
08-11-02, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by Andres De La Hoz
You're not even a year older, fuckwit.
Whatever, I don't care. Let's get back to the topic, which is: YOU ALL SUCK.
Perhaps Andres will become the next Nathan Avery, and resurrect the "3dmm Sucks Page" (circa 1997). I think Whitey knows what I'm talking about :)
In fact, the so-called 'manifesto' is just that...in a way!
Paul Marriott
08-11-02, 05:27 PM
Sorry.
Ignore this posting.
And of-course not forgetting the "Knights of NI!"
nnnnnNNNNNNNNNNNIIIIIIIIII!!!
My friends and I had to do this "Prize Speaking" type performance for school a few years ago and we acted out that Monty Python sketch about Fresh Fruit Defense.
I had the part of the guy who kept talking about pointed sticks.
Watch it stoned and you'll realise the full potential of the Holy Grail's comedy. Trust me.
Paul Marriott
08-11-02, 05:42 PM
Damn. I wish WE could've done the Monty Python skits back at school. They would've been fun.
You forgot the part where he took a screenshot of it and said "Look at this one, it's much better".
He isn't just saying "3dmm sucks!"
Travis, I read that part, but then read the bit where he says Bodily Functions is a shit movie. I cant see how ANYONE can say its a shit movie.
Its practically TV worthy in my eyes.
Dustin Guest
08-11-02, 06:10 PM
I showed that movie to my 4 year old neice and she LOVED it/
Sinarach
08-11-02, 06:22 PM
I haven’t posted anything on this board in a fortnight, but I'll say this.
Yes, it is possible to create all of your points that Andres' has addressed - but the task in which to do so is so tedious and tiresome it discourages 3dmmers to do so.
Despite Andres' conclusion, people do use 3dmm as a hobby tool. People with serious ambitions with movie making should advance to a much more versatile tool. Most people here have no idea about cinematopology, finding the best angle to suit the theme and various other tweaks such as that is all alien to them. As it should, it is an extremely difficult task to do and master, especially with just the one beginner 3dmmer working on a film. It's easy to put that into an essay- expressing what a guy would like to see in a movie, other than actually performing it.
I've read though Andres' eight step point form to succession, and I'm pretty sure, there's not one 3dmm movie out there that addresses more than 3/4 of the points raised. No, none of us are 'mindless talent fucks' we just don't have the knowledge, experience but most importantly motivation to encourage ourselves to keep learning. Can they really blame us? There are hardly any people that give quality reviews or feedback. I'm sure Andres' wasn't satisfied with the reaction of Call the Arms- and possibly Dead heart. It intrigues me why he keeps going. In the beginning years, movies were based on default scenes with default everything, and people loved them, wanted more. Do that today- you only get laughter.
If you look in Hollywood today, what movies this year address all your points Andres' had brought up? Very few. These people have filmmaking diplomas, experience, a whole team to help each other, plus millions of dollars to back it up, but they fail to meet our expectations, at least in my view. How can we expect so much more from one-man 3dmm team?
3dmm is dieing because, in my opinion, we are just sick of it. I think people dislike its limitations more than ever. The models are exhausted, scenes are limited, and it's incredibly cumbersome to create complex movies. With the frame rate issues between WinXP and win9x, plus animation threshold at such high standards, more people are discontinuing using 3dmm for creative purposes.
Another reason why I think it's dieing is because of us, the community members. We just aren’t excited anymore about movies in the way we were used to. People expectations are getting extremely tough and judgmental. People do get hurt when we put down the movies 3dmmers have worked so hard on. I believe this is because of the first reason, people are just sick of 3dmm. People who put down the directors personally because of their movie is possibility the worse thing someone could do. There is no harsher way of insulting someone... addressing the intelligence and artistic talent of a person through their movies, calling them dull and retarded because they movie was. It sounds corny, but people who just aren’t nice to other people are discouraging 3dmmers to keep 3dmming. While some people might keep making movies to prove someone wrong, most people don't go through that much trouble to probably get that same response. Why would a person make a movie when they know people won't like and put them down for it. And if you don't make movies- how can someone possibly get better?
NUTS was only possible with Redwampa large team helping him out, about six people. They were working together, planning it all. These people are foreign to us; you can catch them all in the credits. Redwampa recently told me that NUTS could possibly be discontinued because his group have broken up and he finds the level he wants to work up to is way too complex to do on his own. NUTS2 was still flawed according to Andres' article, but to me, I confidently feel as if NUTS2 is upon pinnacle of what ALL movies are and will be forever.
I can safely say my days using 3dmm are over. My current job, RmP, is just so overwhelming tedious and complex, it's actually hard work to go through with it all. I find myself exhausted after doing a complex scene. I believe people will love this movie if I ever did release it, but its just not enough to go through with for that reason.
People see me as an exceptional director, but I have never finished anything. Bodily Function was for school, and not for the 3dmm community. If I had done that on my own without the pressures of a class deadline, it would of never got finished. Rebirth was a short film and I only did a handful of work in Showdown.
I'm sure everyone here are still learning movie techniques, real directors are always open to discovering better ways of conveying emotion. Everything Andres' wants in 3dmm, quality and experienced Hollywood filmmakers have problems addressing.
Now, I can find flaws in every 3dmm movie, as Andres did in his article, but that's only because I am comparing to current Hollywood films. If I were to compare them to the level the 3dmm developers thought the master of 3dmm movies could be (see Venus 31) then we have achieved an extraordinary amount of talent and ability within the years. So much so, it even makes a good stand against current T.V. shows. Developers never expected users to get to such a high moviemaking quality we achieved, so they didn't put in the versatile and complex options we crave for today.
Now, on a personal note, I dislike Andres' as many other people do. But I did find his article interesting, although I thought it was very hypocrisy. He is telling us how to be the cream of the crop when his movies don't address the kind of expectation he wants in other movies. Andres' flaws lie on not acting on what reviewers are commenting on, that is the zany faced-paced transitions and camera switching that trademarks Andres. I find him deeply; deeply flawed because of that- he cannot make his movies flow smoothly and often is very confusing and awkward to watch. To me, I'd prefer a slightly poorly thought movie that I could follow easily without straining to keep up like in Andres' films. There is no question that Andres' is an exceptionally intelligent person, but he is still far from being a quality filmmaker, let alone one to preach on how to become one. People who feel intimitated with his posts, abuse and putdowns should just ignore him. He is defiantly not an example on how 3dmmer should be, or how to interact with each other.
There are allot of points I disagree with Andres' article, but the biggest one I disagreed with was his attitude to music. Unless you have an orchestra in your basement, you need to cue the graphics based on the music, and not the other way around. There is no other way. The most successful directors in the community (arguably Redwampa, Maltby, Williams and myself) all rely on musical syncs to determine and based the movies graphics, mood, actions- basically everything. Showdown, Rebirth, Nuts, DD, EE, BF, and William's shorts are all movies that follow that principle and I'm sure you agree, develops the correct emotions within you.
I think that most people crave for entertaining movies. That's the only objective one should keep making movies in 3dmm. Entertainment. Making an entertaining movie in 3dmm is hard enough to do. It doesn't take storyboards, scripts, characters, coordination, color- all that arty stuff, save that to people who get paid to worry about it- just focus on being entertaining. DD didn't have coordination Andres' wanted, but I'm sure you'd all agree on being an entertaining movie, one that made you sit through it all without even thinking of stopping halftrack. Litterbug2 and Ragtag on the other hand- while it featured unimaginable eye candy, I'm sure there would be quite a few people who found with their mind wandering when the characters shot the twelve person in a row.
Concluding, if everyone tried to make their movie perfect, as good as Andres' wants it to become, I grantee you will go insane and will lack the motivation to finish it. Keep you priorities on making a fun, enjoyable film that is entertaining. If people liked it, they will tell you so.
I'll go back to fantasing Alyson Hannigan now. Ahh Michelle- I looove you...
Well I know NO ONE, will listen to me so I am going to write in italic.
Besides that, I Think the next step IS groups of people working on one scene.
That would be the movie James Ballard, Gorosaruas, and I, are working on, James Creates the plot the story board and script, then he makes scenes, and goro goes back makes more scenes and Monster effects. Then I come back and add Special Effects, combining the styles and minds of more people REALLY helps the movie.
You can collarberate and tell Ideas, and FOCUS on ONE thing making the movie exciting to make because you get to see other peoples work.
But by NO means is it like a chain movie, because everyone works on one scene.
This automaticly makes the movie better because your not always starring at somone same special effect, or scene/idea.
I am kind of rambiling now. So I'll cut that short, mabye goro can pick that up.
Jordi Visser
08-11-02, 07:41 PM
I absolutely agree with everything Pikios said. His post is what you people should read, instead of Andres' "Manifesto".
Josh Byrd
08-11-02, 08:06 PM
I didnt take the time to read all the posts in this tread, due to the fact i just read that very long manifesto, so im not going to comment on the sub dicussions of this tread.
I totally agree with Andreas, i like to think that i am a good writter/director/actor, and most ppl think i am, but my animation skills are very lacking, so most of my visual art suffers from it, this is why most of the things i write never become a 3dmm movie, but i wait till prehaps i can make it in the real movie making bussiness, where i wont have to animate anything...
Pikios is right.
Andres...you know why lots of people have stopped making movies? PEOPLE LIKE YOU. That's why. Your stupid manifesto is why.
You are setting the standard too high. The bar is so high that only a limited few can reach it. If someone releases a movie that takes months of work but doesn't measure up to your standards, you flame it. Not only do you flame the movie, but you flame the director.
What I gather from your manifesto is that only 3 directors in the whole community have made GOOD movies: Ruiz, Redwampa, and you. That's bulllshit. There are tons of good directors out there. You just don't give them a chance.
Since your mod powers were revoked and you fleeted from the BB like the little bitch that you are, people have been getting along much better in my opinion. Sure...we've had some retarded newbs that have come in (Baofu) and stirred shit up, but all in all the newbies are treated BETTER and community members treat each other BETTER. You used your mod powers like a dictator and attacked anyone with a opinion that was different from your own. You were simply a rude, obnoxious jerk and your only friends were the people who were kissing your ass. You started fights for no good reason and attacked people for no good reason.
FUCK YOU, Andres. FUCK YOU. Get the hell off the BB. No one is going to reach your unrealistic standards. Not even you. So fuck off.
Allergic 2 Life
08-11-02, 08:59 PM
Originally posted by Evan
Well I know NO ONE, will listen to me so I am going to write in italic.
Besides that, I Think the next step IS groups of people working on one scene.
That would be the movie James Ballard, Gorosaruas, and I, are working on, James Creates the plot the story board and script, then he makes scenes, and goro goes back makes more scenes and Monster effects. Then I come back and add Special Effects, combining the styles and minds of more people REALLY helps the movie.
You can collarberate and tell Ideas, and FOCUS on ONE thing making the movie exciting to make because you get to see other peoples work.
But by NO means is it like a chain movie, because everyone works on one scene.
This automaticly makes the movie better because your not always starring at somone same special effect, or scene/idea.
I am kind of rambiling now. So I'll cut that short, mabye goro can pick that up.
First off, Italic is really annoying to read so I am going to skip that.
Secondly, Pikios does make a valid point there... hmmm
Originally posted by Evan
Well I know NO ONE, will listen to me so I am going to write in italic.
Besides that, I Think the next step IS groups of people working on one scene.
That would be the movie James Ballard, Gorosaruas, and I, are working on, James Creates the plot the story board and script, then he makes scenes, and goro goes back makes more scenes and Monster effects. Then I come back and add Special Effects, combining the styles and minds of more people REALLY helps the movie.
You can collarberate and tell Ideas, and FOCUS on ONE thing making the movie exciting to make because you get to see other peoples work.
But by NO means is it like a chain movie, because everyone works on one scene.
This automaticly makes the movie better because your not always starring at somone same special effect, or scene/idea.
I am kind of rambiling now. So I'll cut that short, mabye goro can pick that up.
yes.
No one said anyone had to listen to him, you know?
Allergic 2 Life
08-11-02, 09:07 PM
Evan.... I don't think everyone will want to work in a group because knowing from working with wampa, trying to fit a groups style into one is a PAIN IN THE ASS. So most people would just want to make their own movies, still by themselves. Makes more work, but makes the style stay the same.
Allergic 2 Life
08-11-02, 09:08 PM
Even though I do love to work with other people, I am just saying that OTHERS might want to just keep their movies to themselves.
Andrez, if you don't like our movies go work with Tim Burton, or Spielberg, fuck off.
Ben Williams
08-11-02, 10:23 PM
I haven't read Andres' manifesto becuase the link takes me to a "Bad Gateway" screen... stupid Gateways... but I whole heartedly agree with Adrian's views and would be interested to read yours too, Andres.
Those of you getting all angry over this; don't, please.
well, saying that we are retards and that our movies suck would make anyone at least get a little bit angry.
Ben Williams
08-11-02, 10:28 PM
Originally posted by BAN
Andrez, if you don't like our movies go work with Tim Burton, or Spielberg, fuck off.
Sorry BAN, but that was a silly thing to say.
Ben Williams
08-11-02, 10:29 PM
That's true, but come on, get things into perspective - it's just Andres' own, singular views. By regarding them so highly that they make you wanna kill someone, you just make them seem all the more valid and powerful.
Yes, my mental capacity splits in half when expressing in english, i don't have Andrez mental capacity to express the way he does. Excuse me.
Ben Williams
08-11-02, 10:32 PM
I wasn't insulting your English - it's far mejor que mi Espanol - it was your insult to Andres which, well, which looked a lot like a compliment to his movie making skills.
True Ben, i agree with many things he says of how to improve a movie, but his aggresive approach to say those things is just wrong, u don't say to a classmate "No u fucking retard, to solve this math problem you have to do this... bla bla". He is the one who is actually really pissed.
Kim Turley
08-11-02, 10:35 PM
Originally posted by Whitey
You are setting the standard too high. The bar is so high that only a limited few can reach it. If someone releases a movie that takes months of work but doesn't measure up to your standards, you flame it. Not only do you flame the movie, but you flame the director.
You have got it in one Whitey
Ok Andres, review 'Retrospection' for us
I gave it a 9/10
Ben Williams
08-11-02, 10:37 PM
That's true. Andres is a generally scary person.
oh.... then, Andres, go and kiss Tim Burton and Spielberg's ass.
Ben Williams
08-11-02, 10:38 PM
See, BAN, you just did it again.
oh shit, sorry, i think i've been to much time with BR.
the thing is that i've already expressed my opinion, so now i just read and make retarded jokes.
Kim Turley
08-11-02, 10:46 PM
lol, you ARE turning into BR
i've said:
Andres compares 3dmm movies to high butchet (spell) movies and expects us to make brilliant movies with great plot, great charachter development, great everything, almost impossible.
Instead of making some examples of how we should do it or how he would like we should do it, he attacks prestigious directors in the community and their movies.
he is being a total hipocryte because, even him, hasn't reached his own standards.... yet, or that we will see.
His aggresive actitude towards almost everyone won't help to express the ideas form the manifesto.
wow! hold on!
i won't turn into noone, i'm still me! the man!
Ben Williams
08-11-02, 10:55 PM
Someone paste what he said here!
Demented Ferret
08-11-02, 10:56 PM
I just can't match Andres' voice to his attitude, can you?
Demented Ferret
08-11-02, 10:59 PM
Uh...DHIADW commentary...
Dick Harris
08-11-02, 11:00 PM
well, have you considered that PERHAPS he is actually working on a movie with that standard, STUPID?
Demented Ferret
08-11-02, 11:03 PM
Actually no...:)
Gorosaurus
08-12-02, 12:01 AM
It's humongous.... it would take 6 to 10 posts to get it all in
But yeah, Pikios summed up my feelings of the manifesto perfectly. I hope to God he wasn't totally serious about being ready to quit. Just think how tough it would be with out Travis' AP, heh heh. Adrian should stick to shorts, methinks
Andres' points would be taken a lot better if he would've postponed any such remarks until after he's released some 'superdooper ultra movie.' As it is, some people skills would've really helped make any impact on us
Josh Byrd
08-12-02, 02:10 AM
Sorry, i just got to read Pikios post, and even though i did agree with most of the manifesto and understood Andres points, Pikios, makes the strongest counter point to it so far. I think we need to all stop fighting and drop all this shit, let everbody judge movies how ever they want, u dont like thier opinion, dont listen to it........simple
Jason Ruiz
08-12-02, 02:46 AM
hahahaha
this made me laugh my ass off:
Even before, the community had movies such as Action Joe 2 and Desperado 2, moronic action films with no sense of style, no story, no characters, no thrills, simply nothing of worth.
hahahahaha what the shit are you talking about?! I was 12 years old!
*andres in twenty years*
Andres is sitting in chair reading the newspaper. His 6 year old son comes walking in.
Son: Dad! Guess what! I kissed a girl on the playground today!
Andres: Did you fuck her!??!
Son: ... what?
Andres: I'll take that as a no... just... just get out of my sight.
i did not read this whole topic so forgive me if i repeat some things other people have said, ok:
andres, what the fuck dude. I normally back you on things, but that was fucking rediculous, wait it wasn't rediculous it was an "abomination". I can't believe you actually took the time to write that. As if writing that is gonna make everyone currently making a retarded movie go "well shit, maybe i should completly re-write my movie!". You expect a group of kids to be fucking movie making geniuses, and if anyone fails, then they are a retarded piece of shit, no questions asked. So what if people thought DD was good, no one ever said the Plot was gold. You gotta understand that even in Hollywood there are movies that are popular simply because they had a bunch of shiny effects. And as for quality of movies, did you ever stop to think that not every single person in the community has the time to nitpick on details in a scene and make 40 different angles of the same scene. Not everyone has that kind of time(like the obvious freetime you had to write such an indepth essay). I mean you critiqued screenshots for christs sakes! You calling people stupid, thats ironic. You just wasted a long ass time designing a page pointing out all the flaws of people who use a child's program to make movies for fun. You're stressing out because people are as genius as you are. Okay, andres is right, everyone who can't make a brilliant movie, leave the community now, we dont need that. What an abomination. You have abominated this community with your abomination of an essay. In fact, one could argue you are THE abominated abomination of an abominator.
Sinarach
08-12-02, 02:59 AM
http://www.battle.net/war3/images/undead/units/animations/abomination.gif
1) An intelligent, original plot that succesfully conveys feelings and ideas in a way that doesn't try and manipulate the audience.
2) Well developed characters that act logically and reinforce the ideas and feelings that the movie tries to convey.
2) Direction that focuses on using the cinematic language in moderate, but not excessive ways, trying to show the feelings and emotions from the story through images, rather than through words and music.
4) Original style and ideas from the director that are applied into the movie, but not excessively or constantly. Elements that refer to the director's previous work, but don't make it a copy of it.
Ummm.... you're missing 3...
Crazy Ivan
08-12-02, 05:19 AM
Adrian, I don't know what that thing is, but it's one of the coolest things I have ever seen.
Travis Wells
08-12-02, 05:23 AM
Looks like Warcraft 3.
looks at the filename
YAY!
Will B-R
08-12-02, 06:22 AM
That was a very interesting read Andrez, but the problem with that for me was that fact that would probably spoil half the fun of 3dmm. You see the reason I use 3dmm is to have fun, what about all of you?
Same here. I mean, I'm for making good movies and all, but when you take it THIS seriously...
Demented Ferret
08-12-02, 11:07 AM
Originally posted by Fester Freelance
*andres in twenty years*
Andres is sitting in chair reading the newspaper. His 6 year old son comes walking in.
Son: Dad! Guess what! I kissed a girl on the playground today!
Andres: Did you fuck her!??!
Son: ... what?
Andres: I'll take that as a no... just... just get out of my sight.
OMG! Ahahahaha!
Bob Toasted
08-12-02, 12:31 PM
The thing Adrian posted is an "abomination" from Warcraft 3.
Sammy Sagitarius
08-12-02, 06:23 PM
http://lord_of_the_flies_3d.tripod.com/manifesto/restate.htm
Cheezemaster
08-12-02, 06:40 PM
Originally posted by Sammy Sagitarius
http://lord_of_the_flies_3d.tripod.com/manifesto/restate.htm
Amen to that.
Sammy Sagitarius
08-12-02, 06:43 PM
HEY, EVAN: different scenes, only ONE set for each, moron
(from Andres)
And edit your post so it isn't a blatant reveal of his s/n... It's starred out for a reason, fuck-monkey.
Nope, I'll wait until andres does it. BAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHA.
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